Genogram Core Skills Listen to audio |
Genogram Core Skills Listen to audio | Transcription by CastingWords Andre: Eric, can you tell us a little about what you do, who you are and will you introduce to us the concept of a Genogram? Eric: Sure. My name is Eric McMillan. I am a licensed marriage and family therapist. I am on my way to being a supervisor as well. Being a supervisor is the next step up. The concept of a Genogram is kinda of brought up in an ill way and in therapeutic and educational spaces. It's a tool that can be used by pretty much anyone for a number of purposes.We can do them for family things, we can do them for [inaudible 00:44] , we can do them for money, we can do them for ethnicity. We can do them for lots and lots of reasons. There are different avenues to do them and different reasons why you might want to do them.
A Genogram, in effect, is a family tree. Then what we are going to do is we're going to draw some lines and I'll give you an example here in a second of what I mean. We start to develop patterns and start to see some things going on failing that may not be apparent right away with people's lives.
We are going to draw a family tree, draw some lines and make it a little bit interesting and I'll ask you some interesting questions you submit. You be my volunteer for the day.
Andre: Yes, I'll volunteer. Eric: Excellent. I do want to preface it with you and I do have a relationship kind of going in to this. I might be able to ask you some questions that I may not ask the person right off the bat. That's a good thing so we kind of have that relationship built up so that may be helpful when doing the Genogram. Andre: You said, "first off when you first meet someone sometimes you'll use the Genogram", and you were talking about the fact that you and I have a relationship as a practitioner. Does the Genogram shift, whether you had a number of different sessions, or if you are just being introduced to the people that you are working with? Does that play a role in how you [inaudible 02:17] ? Eric: I think it does in a very subtle way. Some practitioners who are less skilled want to jump right in to the Genogram. They want to get that picture going right away. That may not be what the client wants. The client wants a specific thing from you and so they want you to get something. Doing Genogram you might do it in a second, third, fourth session.You might do it if you are lost, for example, I've done it. I've said, "You know, I'm not really sure what's going on in this family so let's do a giant Genogram, one with the family or with the individual because I don't understand what's going on and I need to see what the patterns are here."
They tell you what's going on, but I'm still a bit lost. Jumping right into a Genogram may not be the smartest thing to do based on what the client is asking for. If you have a little bit of a relationship and you can frame the conversation on what we're going to do with the family patterns so to speak, maybe that's what's going on.
Now, I do a Genogram in my head and I'll do one in my intake report [inaudible 03:21] for myself. I'll ask about the players, brothers and sisters, is there anybody else living in the home, stuff like that. Who are the major players? I'll draw a small one on a piece of paper and if it seems like that that's the major issue, then we'll go there.
If it's not a major issue either way maybe we'll go there in the second session. Maybe we'll go there in the third session. It's all about timing and what you think the client is working for.
I draw it on my little piece of paper so I know who the major players are and I draw the lines where I think it's going on. Timing is important in this and also getting to know the clients and what it is they are looking for is the other major [inaudible 04:04] .
When you're going to do a Genogram, the important thing to remember is and since you're the one doing this, you're the player. You're the major player in it. Let's kind of get started here. I only have two colors here.
I usually work with like five or six, bear with me. What we're going to do is start to...I have to explain something. There are specific shapes for a lot of things. I'll start over here. Squares are boys, circles, draw them on.
[laughter]
The nice thing about these is even if you screw up the circle or you screw up the symbol, then they give you the benefit of the doubt as they don't really know that.
[crosstalk]
Eric: Anyway, squares are boys, circles are girls. We'll start real basic. This is you, right here and you are the identified person. We're going to put you [inaudible 05:07] box, big box. Andre, how old are you? Andre: I am 43 years old. Eric: 43. OK.Keep in mind this is your Genogram. This is the way you view your family. Now, if I went and did this with your family it may look different. They may say something different; they may interpret something different so just bear that in mind because it's your personally.
Andre: Actually I'm 44. Eric: 44? OK. [laughs] Andre: [inaudible 05:39] Eric: We are also saying when you do a Genogram, have fun with it because the families will have fun with it too and there is going to be a lot of things, I will point them out as we go along. The family is going to want to have some fun with it.Humor is the grease that really gets the cogs moving in the machine that is there. What we're going to do is we're going to go back. We're going to do three generations. There's you, there's your parents, and then your grandparents. OK.
I'll give you those connecting lines. It's kind of important to try and make as much space as possible, depending on how big your family is. I've seen them about this big, I've seen them that take up the whole whiteboard. Obviously, everybody has two parents. What is your dad's name?
Andre: My dad's name is William Cohen. [inaudible 06:38] . Eric: How old is he? Andre: He is 20 years older than me, so he is 61. He's actually 65. [inaudible 06:47] . Eric: [laughs] Your mom? Andre: Rushelle. R-U-S-H-E-L-L-E. Eric: OK. She is how old? Andre: She is 65 as well. Eric: Are they married to each other? Andre: They're divorced. Eric: They are divorced. OK, so now I'm going to draw some lines here. Andre: All right. Eric: OK. This is the divorce. Now, as we're going through this, we're just going to draw the basic outline of it. Then, we'll start drawing some relational lines that may help you understand, maybe a pattern, maybe something you haven't seen before.If not, that's totally cool, too. I'm going to look at this, I'm going to give you my feedback, and I'm going to ask you some questions. Feel free to jump in with information that I didn't get to. We've got Rushelle, we've got William, they are divorced.
Andre: Yes. Eric: Roughly when did they divorce? Andre: 1987. Eric: OK, so we're going to put a little D, '87, right there. Are they remarried? Andre: My dad has been remarried. It's his third marriage. Eric: OK, so he has one here, with a divorce. Now, he's got another one over here, that's current. Andre: It is current, yes. Eric: OK. We'll get to them in a second. Mom remarried? Andre: My mom did remarry. Eric: OK. One time? Andre: One time. She was divorced to him as well. Eric: OK. She currently single or seeing someone? Andre: I think she's seeing someone. Eric: OK. Single line means they were married, that little slash means they're divorced. This line right here indicates a relationship, but not marriage. Make sense? Andre: Yeah. Eric: OK. Andre: It's about to get deep. Eric: [laughs] We're going to have some fun with this. Do you know her name, the second marriage? Andre: Yes, her name is Venus. Eric: Venus. [inaudible 09:00] [crosstalk] Andre: [inaudible 09:02] . Eric: Did they have any kids together? Andre: No, they did not. Eric: OK. Is she still in the picture at all? Andre: She is not. Eric: OK, so she's kind of off on her own. His current wife? Andre: Della. Eric: Della? D-E-L-L-A? Andre: Yeah. Eric: OK. They live together now. Do they have any kids together? Andre: They do not. Eric: OK. How old is Della? Andre: I'd say she's probably 60, give or take. [inaudible 09:39] . Eric: Oh, of course. Well, rough ages are OK. Mom divorced this gentleman? Andre: Yeah. Eric: His name was? Andre: Tony, and he is deceased. Eric: Sometimes, in the books, what they'll tell you is they draw an X through the person. Andre: That's a little extreme. [laughs] Eric: It is a little extreme for a dead person. Andre: It is. Eric: Instead of drawing a big X through it, I draw a small X, like this, an indication that the person has passed away. Is that the reason they divorced, or is it...? Andre: Yeah. Eric: He died roughly... Andre: Probably about five years ago. [inaudible 10:21] . Eric: We'll just write the year, "2000." She's in a relationship with somebody? Andre: Yeah, I think his name is Jack. I'm not sure. Eric: OK. Any kids from these relationships? Andre: No, no kids. Eric: OK. Once again, just making the framework. Do you have any siblings? Andre: I do. I have two brothers and a sister. Eric: Both from this relationship? Andre: Yep. Eric: OK. So two brothers and a sister. Here's your sister, here's your brother. Here's where things get a little complicated. When you're doing the Genogram, make sure you give yourself plenty of space. It can spread out very quickly. If you need to erase something...you have two brothers. Their names are? Andre: I'm the oldest. My next brother is William. Eric: And to be fair, I did screw this up, because usually you go in chronological order. But, we'll do the best we can. How old is he? Andre: He is two years younger than me. He is 42. Eric: And your other brother? Andre: Damien is six years younger than me. So he is just 38. Eric: And your sister is? Andre: She is 40. [inaudible 11:57] Crystal. C-R-Y... Eric: Basic framework. Any kids on here that I missed? Andre: Nope. Eric: Are you married? Andre: I am. Eric: OK. We're going to try to make some space here. It's going to be a little complicated. And you're married to a female? Andre: Yes, to a female. Patricia.[crosstalk]
Andre: [inaudible 12:27] . Eric: [inaudible 12:29] . Patric...Does she go by any nicknames? Andre: No. It's just Patricia. First name. Eric: How old is Patricia? Andre: Patricia is 30. Eric: You don't look 44, I'll say that. Andre: I appreciate that. [crosstalk] Eric: [inaudible 12:51] . And you two have children? Andre: Yes. We have one female child. Her name is Phoebe, P-H-O-E-B-E. Eric: How old is she? Andre: She is 1 years old. Eric: One! Wow that's funny. [crosstalk] Andre: [inaudible 13:08] . Eric: [inaudible 13:09] . Do either of you have children? Andre: No. Eric: Other children? Andre: No. Eric: First marriage for both of you? Andre: Yes. Eric: Ah! That makes it easy. Once we start moving, things start to get a little complicated. OK. Any of your brothers and sisters married? Andre: Yes they are. Eric: All of them are? Andre: Yes. Eric: OK. Let's do this. We're gonna just move some things around here. All of them are sexual relationships? Andre: Yes. Eric: OK [pause] I had to ask. So this is where it gets a little complicated. Let's start here on William. His wife's name? Andre: Tracey. Eric: Tracey. She is roughly how old? [inaudible 13:59] .[crosstalk]
Andre: [inaudible 14:00] 40. Eric: They have children? Andre: Yes, William III. Eric: Oh that's right. I see that. We'll say Will III. Andre: Mark and Ciara. Eric: They're roughly how old? Andre: Will is 18, Mark is now 21, and Ciara is 14. Eric: OK. Are any of them dating or married? Andre: No. Eric: OK. Damien is married to who? Andre: To Kelly. Eric: How old is Kelly? Andre: Kelly is probably around 38 as well. Eric: They have kids? Andre: They have four kids. Jefarii who we call J. Eric: A boy? Andre: A boy, and he is 14. Conrah, a female... Eric: [inaudible 15:14] for space sake. Andre: [inaudible 15:15] . Then there are two more daughters -- [inaudible 15:18] They are stair steps. The youngest one is two, the other one is four. And Conrah [inaudible 15:43]. Eric: OK. Crystal's husband? Andre: Walter. They have five kids. Eric: Oh, wow. Let's see what we can do about Walt. Let's see if we can fit everybody in. One, two three, four, five. Walter is roughly 40? Andre: He's my age, he's 44. Eric: They have five kids? Andre: Yeah. The oldest daughter is Rocquelle. They have three boys and that's Walter, Winston, Wellington. Eric: Wellington! [laughs] Wow! They've got the W thing going on. Andre: ...and Riley. Eric: Well it's not Wrigley.[crosstalk]
Andre: [inaudible 16:54] . Eric: Well what does Crystal do? Andre: Nothing now I guess! Nothing now. Eric: Nothing they could do there. [inaudible 17:07] . Andre: OK so the ages. Rocquelle is 21. Then, Winston is 16 and Walter is 15. They share the same birthday a year apart. Wellington is 10. His sister is 9. Eric: Quite a few kids on this side. I'm going to erase this...male female circles. Eric: We finally did get that down. Andre: We did. Eric: We finally figured that out. [laughter] Eric: So on your mom's side, her parents are? Andre: Burt Parker, B-U-R-T, and Lucella Lewis. Eric: And are they still with us? Andre: They are not, they've both passed. Eric: What age were they when they passed? Andre: My grandfather was about 45 when he passed. Eric: Fairly young. Again, that's [inaudible 18:30] . Andre: [inaudible 18:31] Yes. Lucella passed this last April. So 2015, so she would have been 91. [inaudible 18:44][crosstalk]
Eric: [inaudible 18:46] They were married? Andre: They were married at one point, and they had a divorce. Eric: OK. Andre: [inaudible 18:56] Eric: I do want to point out that it may sound like I'm asking very simple, rudimentary questions, but it's important because to assume that people were married is an assumption that may not make sense, especially if...I hate to point this out, but I've got divorce, divorce, divorce, divorce. We haven't gotten to this side of the family yet, but I'm starting to notice one thing already. Not that it means anything, but it's interesting.
Andre: Yes. Eric: OK, so they divorced. Did she remarry? Andre: She did remarry. Eric: Did he remarry? Andre: He did not. Eric: OK, so she remarried, once? Andre: Yes. Eric: OK. Again, I'm asking a simple question because in these, the smallest detail can make a big difference. My assumption, and this is where my bias comes from, is that the people of the older generations stuck it out, no matter what. Andre: Yeah. Eric: Most people still got divorced back then, [inaudible 19:57] . OK, so she got remarried to who? Andre: To Charlie [inaudible 20:06] . Eric: OK. He still with her? Andre: He is not, and I would say he passed some time in the '80s. He would have been in his 60s or so. Eric: Rough '80s is OK. Did she have any siblings? Did your mom have any siblings? Andre: Yeah, on this side of the divorce, you can put her two sisters, on this side. Eric: With Burt? Andre: With Burt. Eric: OK, so there's two sisters. Any others? [inaudible 20:38] . Andre: [inaudible 20:39] With Charlie and Lucella, there are eight siblings. Eric: Eight? Andre: Eight. Eric: Wow, OK. One, two, three, four... Andre: Actually, let me back up. There's six. Put another third circle with Bert, another female. [crosstalk] All here, all girls, [inaudible 21:05] . On the other side, there are...my mom has a total of nine brothers and sisters, so there's 10 total of them -- four on this side, so six on the other side. Eric: Now, in situations where there's a number of siblings like that, especially when it's a much further-in generation, I find at least for time's sake, especially because it's several pieces removed. Any of these siblings more important than the others?Now, when I say important, I say for likability's sake, like really going on with this one, and the opposite, which is, they could not stand Bill. Bill got on everybody's nerves. Positive and negative -- big, impractical relationships. Not necessarily positive, it can be negative.
Andre: Yes, I would say that, out of those...We talked about my mother's brothers and sisters. The two that probably stand out more than the others are the oldest daughter, who was my aunt Lorraine. Eric: Lorraine. Andre: Yep, and she just passed. She was 70, roughly around 70. She just passed also in April. My grandmother was living with my aunt Lorraine. Eric: Oh, they were living together. Andre: They were living together. Eric: I'm going to draw a circle around [inaudible 22:40] that you get important information. These two were very close. Andre: Yes. The other side, in terms of looking at the divorces, I would say, [inaudible 22:52] . The individual was [inaudible 22:56], who was the oldest boy out of those [inaudible 23:04]. Eric: Why was he important? Andre: Because he was the oldest boy and one of the first to go off to college after this [inaudible 23:14] . He's somewhat [inaudible 23:18]. Eric: I might get ahead of myself, but would you say he was very influential in your mother's life? Andre: I would say sort of, because she is older than him, so she saw herself as the protector, kind of thing. Whether he saw that from her or not, that's how she saw him. Eric: OK, in a positive way? Andre: In a positive way. Eric: I'm going to draw these lines, and it'll make sense in a second. Let's get the outline over here done, and then we're going to get into the very interesting stuff. Andre: OK. Eric: Didn't miss anybody? Andre: No. Eric: [inaudible 24:02] Andre: My grandfather's name was [inaudible 24:17] , and he passed in the '80s [inaudible 24:30]. My grandmother's name is Willora. Yeah, it's W-I-L-L-O-R-A. Eric: That's kind of what I figured. Andre: Her dad was William, her dad was Lora. Eric: Ah, OK. [laughs] That's a good bit of mystery. Andre: Yeah. Eric: Fair enough. Is she still with us? Andre: No, she passed about four years ago, so she was 89. Eric: You got a couple people who lived -- 89, 91, 70 -- you got a couple folks here. One that left us a little early. Is there a particular reason why? Andre: Health. Eric: Health reasons? Andre: Yeah, diabetes. Eric: Poor maintenance? Andre: Poor maintenance, or even bad luck with health. Eric: I asked that question because when you see somebody passing away at a young age, sometimes that can influence some of the rest of it. Andre: I would say that it did. I assume we'll get to it. Eric: Sure. OK, when we get there, remind me to bring that up. Matter of fact, I'm going to put a little dot as a reminder to myself to ask about that. If it's a car accident or a medical issue, that's really [inaudible 25:59] good word, I guess. OK, let's finish this piece, and we'll get to that. Your father have any siblings? Andre: My father had two siblings. Eric: Let's move this way a little bit. Andre: Yeah. Both male. John II, and Alonzo, who was the oldest. Eric: Alonzo's the oldest, you said? Andre: Yeah, he is the oldest. He's about five years older than my dad, so he's in his 70's, and John died at an early age as well, so he was probably around 35. Eric: Oh. Is that passing important? Andre: I think so. Eric: Was it impactful? Andre: I believe it was impactful in terms of what the family relations are. Eric: Oh? Legend. OK, good. I'm going to put a dot on that one too. That one sounds good. Andre: My grandparents got a divorce. Eric: Oh, thank you for reminding me. One of the nice things is, once you get the ball rolling with this, you did exactly what a lot of families do. You forgot, so-and-so, you got to...the nice thing is, at a certain point, they'll start reminding you of what's going on. Andre: It becomes less of a kind of academic performance, and more... Eric: This is my family. Andre: This is my family. Eric: This is personal. Andre: This is personal. Eric: This is very personal. I'm going to ask you some very personal questions. Here we go. I'm going to ask you some personal questions. Remember, this is your viewpoint of this, OK? There's no judgement here, there's no whatever, and it's just the way things go.Anybody I missed, or sometimes there are peripheral people who are out here, who are...They can be best friends, they can be mistresses, they can be lovers, they can be just really influential people in a family's life, like a reverend, or a pastor, or a clergy member, somebody who's here, not like family, they're not blood-tied, but they're very important. Anybody who might fall into this?
Andre: Yes. There's two people that are important to this whole... Eric: This whole scenario? Andre: The whole scenario. One is Burt Parker's father. His name is Sam Parker, and he's important because he tried to fill the shoes of his son. Eric: Oh, he became the man of this house. Andre: Yes, he made a good attempt to be so, yes. Eric: OK, so we'll draw a dotted line around this as a reminder how this tried to play out. Andre: Yes. On this side, my grandfather John remarried to a woman named Ella. That's important too, [inaudible 29:33] . Eric: Got it. Consolation, that's a good word. Excellent. So far, let's just take stock of how [inaudible 29:48] . What do you think of all this? Have you seen it this way before? Andre: I've thought about it in these kinds of ways, yeah. There's things on here that actually make me nervous because I see recurring themes. Those themes make me a bit nervous about my own... Eric: About this, right here? Andre: Yeah. Eric: Sure, OK. It doesn't make it inevitable. Andre: No. Eric: It's just something to keep in mind. OK, so I like to start in the middle. You can start this any way you want. I tend to start in the middle and branch my way out. There are some lines, and [inaudible 30:31] for the camera, but I'm going to draw some lines just so that they can see it.One line means you like the person, they're OK, but if you were forced to be in a room with them you might [inaudible 30:43] . You like them, but you're not going to go out of your way to see them. You've got two lines, which means you're pretty tight. "I like that person, we get along, things are pretty good. We're good."
Three lines means you are what we call enmeshed with that person, meaning things are a little too close. You've seen these families, sometimes it's mother-daughter, father-son, where it's a little too close, they finish each other's sentences. It's an unhealthy level of connection.
"Oh, so what are you going to do today?" "Well what are they doing? What's Bill doing? I can't do anything without them, I can't think without..." It's unhealthy.
Andre: OK. Almost [inaudible 31:39] kind of way. Eric: Yes, I would go there. The nice thing is you can mix and match all these different lines all you want, to make them make your family or your situation fit. These lines are not set in stone. I'm going to make a jagged line, which means it's an abrasive relationship. You don't really like each other. I'm going to make a wavy line, which is abuse. We can specify what kind of abuse. Andre: Like alcohol, physical... Eric: Yep. That's another good question. Sometimes I'll ask...and you're always going to forget something, so that happens...is anybody in here an addict? You can do an addict tree; I've done that before. With people who have dealt with abusers who are physical abusers, they can trace where that [inaudible 32:36] comes from. Another line, a dotted line. Meaning, this one, you kind of like the person and they're fine. This is, I just...no. There's another one even further than that, like this, which is cut off. Which means, not only no, but hell no. Andre: Yeah. They're like, I don't want them anywhere near me. Eric: Don't call me, don't talk to me, we're done. We can mix and match all of these if we want, and there's a couple more too, but these are complicated ones. Does that make sense? Andre: Yeah. Eric: Sometimes it helps to describe what all these lines are, and if we come to some extra ones, I'll show you what's up. Andre: Again, you can use it as a technique. You can also do these in different colors. Typically, more colors. Eric: Yes. Typically, more colors, so you can see the pattern a little bit easier. Andre: That's OK. Usually, this will work. Eric: I might ask you, "How's your relationship with so-and-so?" and you can tell me one line, two lines, three lines, and [inaudible 33:40] . There are plenty of times where it's like this, which is, we like each other, but man, we butt heads. We're too much alike, for example. There also may be where you said you might have had a fight with someone, so now we don't talk. It's going to look like this, an abrasive relationship with a cut off. Andre: You can combine the types of relationships. These are basically relationship lines that we're going to be adding to. Eric: Hopefully, some patterns will come out, embracing one line I've drawn, draw a dotted line, who lives with whom and whatnot. Let's start pretty simple. You and Patricia. How would you describe that relationship? Andre: I would say that would probably be here, two lines. Eric: Now I have to ask the question, would she describe it the same way? Andre: I think so. Eric: You think so? Andre: Yeah. Eric: OK. I have to ask, because sometimes it's the other way.[crosstalk]
Andre: I can't speak for her. Obviously, this is my perspective. Eric: This is your perspective, yes. On your family. Andre: On my family. Eric: Let's go to the next nearest relationship point, which is your parents. How would you describe your relationship with your mother? Andre: I'd say my relationship with my mother is pretty strong, so two... Eric: Two more lines here? Andre: Two lines, yeah. Eric: How would you describe your relationship with your dad? Andre: I would say my relationship with my dad is probably a combination between a line and a dot. Eric: In my head I kind of had that. I wondered. Andre: Kind of distant, we're kind of related, but we're definitely not a [inaudible 35:38] . Eric: Fair enough. Now to depart for a second. Your brother William, the next one down. How would you describe your relationship with your father? Andre: How would I describe his relationship with our dad? Eric: Mm-hmm. Andre: I would say they're probably...now this is going to sound [inaudible 36:02] too. Probably a double line with a dot. Eric: OK, why do you say that? Andre: Because in our younger years, he would [inaudible 36:18] with my dad, stay with my dad, they obviously had a good relationship between my dad and him. I'm not sure if it's strained now or not, but they certainly had a close relationship. [inaudible 36:31] your brother is your brother [inaudible 36:33] , I would say a strong double line, but their relationship with my father [inaudible 36:38]. Eric: Really. Why would you say that the two oldest boys have a pretty strained relationship with him, but the two younger ones have a pretty good relationship? Andre: I would say that clearly or unclearly... Eric: No, this is your opinion. Andre: ...that I think we had more influence from our mother than the two younger boys did. Eric: OK. When they were divorcing? Andre: Yeah, in the divorcing period. Eric: OK. You would describe the relationship between your mother to William as the same two lines? Andre: Yeah, two lines. Eric: OK. So here's going to be an interesting question; I'm interested to hear this. Since you said that, with your dad, less influence here than your mom, how would you describe their relationship, these two, with your mom? Andre: I would say that my sister's relationship is probably a three-line relationship with my mother. Eric: A little too close? Andre: Sometimes, yeah. Eric: OK. Like [inaudible 37:55] . Andre: Yeah. Talk to each other about everything. [inaudible 38:00] . Eric: Gotcha. OK. Andre: I would say my brother and my mother are probably three lines as well. Eric: OK. How would you now, at this very moment, relationship between your mom and [inaudible 38:21] ? Andre: That would be...I would say a mix of...what does the wavy line mean? Eric: This is abuse. We can specify what kind... Andre: No, no. Eric: This is abrasive. Andre: This is abrasive. I would say just basically broken. Eric: Single line with a cut? Andre: Single line with a cut. They don't really have... Eric: Fair enough. Sometimes this question can get interesting results. What's your mother's relationship to your wife? Andre: I think it's a double line. Eric: OK. You think they get along well? Andre: I think they get along pretty well. Eric: Same with your dad, too? Andre: Yeah. Eric: OK. Because your relationship is, "We're cool, but not sure." But Patricia's is OK? Andre: Yeah. Eric: OK. I will say this. It does get a little messy after a while. But that's OK, because even then, you can still see through it. Little messy. You embrace the mess. Andre: Embrace the mess.[laughter]
Eric: I'm already noticing a small pattern here, which is everybody likes your mom! Andre: Yeah. Eric: She sounds like a cool lady. Andre: Yeah. Eric: So she's a cool lady? Andre: Yeah. Obviously, unless you're married to her.[laughter]
Eric: Summed it right up. Have you met this Jack person? Speaking of which, now that you brought that up. Andre: Yeah, I have. I know Jack. Eric: Yeah? And? Andre: He's a cool guy. Eric: How do they get along? Andre: I guess they get along pretty well. Eric: OK. So two... Andre: Yeah, two lines. Eric: I want to branch out. How do you get along...we can start with your siblings. Between you and William, let's start there. How would you describe that? Andre: I would say, William, Damien, and Crystal, we all have a similar relationship, which is a line and a dot. We get along, but we don't necessarily call each other every day, or even holidays. If something ever happened, we would be there for each other, but we're not...I don't know what they're doing right now. Eric: You would say that between their relationships too? Andre: I would say that, yeah. Eric: Interesting. Let's draw this in here for a quick second. What do you make of this situation, [inaudible 41:24] , empathizing, which is, are they really getting along? People are hit-or-miss with that. People are, down here, this relationship is kind of hit-or-miss as well. What do you make of that? Andre: I'm not sure what to make of it. [inaudible 41:46] . I don't know what you [inaudible 41:53]. Eric: That's OK. Something to think about. You don't have to have every right or wrong answer. It is what it is. We can kind of branch out a little bit. Did you...you probably never knew Burt, I'm guessing. Andre: I have stories of... Eric: Stories. Andre: ...having known him, but I don't think so. Eric: Did you ever meet Sammy? Andre: Yes. Sam lives with us. Eric: He lives with you? Andre: Yes. Eric: How does that work? Andre: Sam, in terms of the Burt Parker, was the obvious patriarch. When Burt died, Sam was always a very big presence, even in Burt's absence. Burt was kind of keeping under his shadow. [inaudible 42:53] kind of person. He had a [inaudible 42:57] family. Eric: You might say that this was a little bit abrasive. Andre: I would say that that might be, yeah, a little bit abrasive. Eric: You think Sam is a pretty large character. Andre: Yeah, he's a pretty large character. In the '80s, Sam is two years older than [inaudible 43:21] generation. About 85, he was 85, soon to be 86. We moved in with him to help him, because he was getting up in age. I was 14 or 15 at the time. He became a grandfather, when in actuality, he's my great-grandfather. Eric: Gotcha. Is he kind of abrasive with a lot of people? Or was it just when he was acting as dad? Andre: I can't answer that. I don't know. Because I only know of him when he was acting as dad. Eric: When he was acting as dad with your mom, how would you describe Sam? Technically, her grandfather. Andre: Yeah. I would say... Eric: Your perception. Andre: Yeah, this is my perception. There was probably a line... Eric: Again, combine any of these lines. Andre: ...and this sounds...maybe even a double line with a [inaudible 44:28] . Eric: Sure. So I might describe these people as loving, but very firm. Andre: Yeah, very firm. Old school, [inaudible 44:43] . Eric: "I do this for your own good." Yeah, that kind of guy. Andre: [inaudible 44:46] Eric: It sounds like Priscilla was around as well. How would you describe your... Andre: My perception of my mother's relationship with her mother? I would say equal, the same double line, with the same kind of conflict in it. My grandmother was a very hard woman until she got old, and then she became very soft. Eric: Some people graduate out of the firmness. Andre: Yeah. She was a no-nonsense kind of lady, my way highway, [inaudible 45:24] . Eric: It sounds like Rochelle and Lorraine were almost a three. Andre: Yes, they were a three. Eric: They lived together. Andre: My aunt Lorraine was a three with my mother, and my aunt Lorraine was a three with my grandmother. Eric: With her? Andre: Yes. Eric: Really? Andre: Yeah. Eric: Was Lorraine just that way with everybody, or she was the watchdog? Andre: Yes and no. I think for Lorraine, it was important for her to be in control. She could... Eric: Really. So when Burt died, did she see the void and try and take care of everybody? Andre: I'm not sure. [inaudible 46:08] . Eric: It's a question. Andre: But I do know that Lorraine was a serious matriarch. Eric: OK. Very motherly? Andre: Very motherly. Eric: Was she this way to the other kids too? Andre: She was this way to all of the kids. Eric: Very...you described it as controlling. Andre: I did describe it as controlling. Eric: Again, perception. She is setting herself up, I guess, to be the person. Andre: Yes. She was the person. Eric: Interesting. Again, something to think about. You've got three lines, and then this one, with Crystal, here. You've got three brothers and one girl. She's enmeshed with [inaudible 47:04] . What do you think? Andre: That my mother's setting this up to be the new matriarch. Eric: Maybe rightfully so. Andre: Maybe rightfully so. Eric: Have you noticed this before? Andre: I have certainly noticed it, and... Eric: OK. Does it cause conflict at all? Andre: No, it doesn't. However, sometimes I feel for my sister because she in some ways feels, in my opinion, she may feel trapped. Stuck in Ohio, where the rest of us have all left. None of the boys there. Eric: It's an interesting question. Andre: Yep. It often comes up. Eric: Were Cheryl, Jack, and this part of the family in Ohio? Andre: Yep. Eric: Anybody else in Ohio? Andre: Nope. Eric: Just these people. Andre: Well, this whole side of the family, for the most part, is in Ohio. Eric: OK. Let's [inaudible 48:05] . We're going to draw a circle around the whole bit to say "Ohio." Now something makes a little bit of sense, why there's a little bit of a dotted line for Crystal, because she's out of the state Andre: We're all out of the state from each other. That's where that dotted line kind of becomes a dotted line. Eric: Everybody else is in Minnesota? Andre: Nope. My dad is in Tennessee, my brothers are in Atlanta, [inaudible 48:46] in Minnesota. Eric: I'll draw a line around you three. You've got some distance between all of you. [inaudible 49:00] . You're all scattered. Andre: It's kind of obvious when you look at the line, and the dotted line. Eric: You say obvious, what do you mean? Andre: Well... Eric: It's not obvious to me. Andre: The geography of where we are has a lot to do with the relationships that we have, according to my perception of where we are. The dotted line for my father, the dotted line for my brothers, I think also is related to that distance. Eric: I just thought of something. What's William's relationship with Sam? Because I started putting two and two together, and it sounds like Sam and you moved in while they were still together. Is that true? Andre: Yes, that is true. Eric: OK. So what's their relationship like? Especially, he's a larger-than-life character. Andre: Yeah. I would say probably pretty strained. So maybe... Eric: Dot, maybe with a squiggly thing? Andre: Yeah, dot with a squiggly. Eric: I can imagine the squiggly bit, because if you've got somebody here who's, "I'm Dad" and somebody else who's coming in like, "No, no, no, I'm Dad," I could see some conflict arising there. That makes sense, to me anyway. Andre: Yep. Eric: We'll put a jagged line and a squiggly line. OK. It kind of makes me wonder. Does that situation precipitate when [inaudible 50:31] . Andre: I would imagine that some of it was a factor. I would say it was a factor. Eric: A factor. Not the factor. Andre: No, I don't think it was the factor, but it was a factor. Eric: Branching out just a little bit, I'm trying to get a big picture, just making sure we've gotten some time here. This can go based on stories you've heard, you don't have to have personal experience, but what do you think the relationship was with your dad's parents with your dad? Andre: What is my dad's relationship with... Eric: His parents. Andre: His parents. I think with my grandmother it was probably three lines. Eric: OK. Really? Andre: Yeah. Eric: Excuse the phrase -- a mama's boy? Andre: Yeah, a little bit. Eric: OK. And with his dad? Andre: It was probably a line with a dot. Eric: OK. A little distant, he's there, but mentally kind of just checked out maybe. Andre: [inaudible 51:37] Eric: OK. [inaudible 51:39] Andre: [inaudible 51:40] Eric: OK. Based on the stories you heard. To ask another question, we've got a grandma here who's very enmeshed with her little boy, who then raised a woman sort of enmeshed here. Then we've got a dad who's distant, and kind of having some distant relationships again. What do you think? Andre: I think you replicate your [inaudible 52:17] . Eric: [laughs] That's a very intellectual answer, Andre. Andre: [laughs] I think we replicate what we know. Eric: Is this some of this nervousness coming in? Andre: It is, in fact. Because looking at my mother's side, and then you see my father's side, it becomes very obvious that people have started to replicate relationships that they had been a part of. [inaudible 52:44] goes back to the individual, being me, that these are not patterns that I necessarily want to replicate, because I can go back and see what the results are. Eric: Now, we could, in theory, do this on a big spreadsheet and double sessions. I've done more than two sessions with this client because it does get so big and so long.I have to ask a couple questions, and then for time's sake. If you were in a bind, and you had only one phone call, doesn't matter, day or night. You were in a massive bind, could only talk to one person, who'd you call?
Andre: My mom. Eric: Your mom? OK.[laughter]
Eric: She seems like a happening lady. Seems like the one everybody goes to. OK. It makes me wonder if she set it up that way, whether it's possible or not. Andre: When you're just looking at the diagram, one could certainly suggest that she did set it up that way. [inaudible 54:08] . Eric: Is there anybody in here where people are just like, "No, hell no. Screw that person. They were mean, they were a jerk," nobody likes that person? Andre: I don't think so. I don't think there's any one person. I think there are attributes of people, but I don't think there's any one person that people don't like. Eric: OK. I have to ask if there is any abuse in your family that I should be aware of. Andre: I think there's a lot of alcohol abuse and physical abuse [inaudible 54:43] , particularly on the right side of the family. Eric: Mom's side? Andre: Mom's side of the family. Eric: I'm going to take a stab in the dark that it starts with someone. Am I wrong? Andre: I would say that it would start with Sam, but I would say that culturally, there's some cultural things around physical abuse that people do. It's considered natural. Eric: Did he ever aim it at anybody in particular? Andre: I don't think so. Eric: OK, because sometimes they'll pick one or two [inaudible 55:16] . Andre: Yeah, Dad hits me, too, today, a lot, but I do know that physical abuse, and there's lots of alcoholism on that side of the family. Eric: Who would we mark as having problems with alcohol? Andre: I would say [inaudible 55:38] and then... Eric: Yeah, I know it's hard. I put a page that's kind of blank in there. Did that trickle down to your mom, too? Did she have an issue? Andre: Not necessarily an issue but being in an environment where alcohol was abusive, and became a secondary response of protecting her students, always being associated with protecting her students. Eric: Do you think that's why Lorraine is the way she is? Andre: Yes. That's exactly why she is the way she is. Eric: OK! Andre: Yes, for a number of reasons. Eric: Light bulb! OK! She's protecting...[crosstalk]
Andre: She was protective and she was all of those things Eric: So this lady right here... Andre: Yeah Eric: ...is kind of your mom, right? Andre: Yeah. Eric: It's actually her. She's the one and we're not blaming her. Andre: No. Eric: No responsibility. It just is. It's an interesting fact that she would take this protective motherly feline, motherly [inaudible 56:51] , "Come to me. Come, I will protect you from all of this." Andre: "From all the world." Yep. Eric: Right? And the world, and the alcoholism, and all that good jazz. She would be the overbearing one. And then your mom would be the nice one. Isn't that weird? Andre: That is kind of weird. Eric: That your mom, she's protective when you're together, and over here we've got the...she's just nice. She filled that nice void. Andre: We've got to protect that. Eric: Again, this is perception, and this is the way we look at it, So, I'm going to invite you to take a step back over here for a second Andre: To walk up here. Eric: Yes, physically walk up here. I'm going move over here and I'm going to ask you to take a a step. No, take a step and kind of look at it and give me your impression. Good, bad, otherwise, it doesn't matter. Give me your impression. Andre: It looks like my grandfather and my dad's relationship with his son is the same as my relationship with my dad. It also looks like my relationship with my mother is very similar to the relationship I have with my wife. Eric: You're getting a little emotional. Andre: Yeah. Eric: That's OK. That's OK, what's going on? What's going on? Andre: Yeah. So, it's interesting to see all of that going on, because I have choices. Eric: Focus-based. That's your [inaudible 58:49] . Andre: Like all of us, I have choices, and I can continue a number of these patterns or I can start changing them. I know, from seeing a number of these individuals personally, that trauma and stress and racism... Eric: Whit, we didn't even go there. Andre: Yeah, we did not go there. They've been a huge part of why people died young, why folks are protective of other people, and tried to build relationships. Because my mother's relationship with us with the double lines is the same as she tried to have with her youngest older brother, so that makes sense.I think her relationship with Jack is a very important one. I don't even know how intimate that relationship is, but it's certainly was very similar relationship to what she had with her friends.
Eric: I noticed that you started to get a little emotional but you pulled back. Why did you pull back? Andre: Because I... Eric: Is it easier academically? Andre: Yes, it's easier to hear it academically. But the other thing that I realized was that, for the emotions that I was feeling, there is response that I can use my emotions to actually move forward. Just thinking about these relationships that I want to continue, or how I want it to be different, losing my control, and I don't have to. I can use my emotions to change how those things are, as opposed to just wallowing in those emotions. Eric: And to you, it's wallowing, right? My response to you might be you call it wallowing, I call it [inaudible 1:01:02] . And so the experiences that you feel are wallowing, like it's a bad thing, you shouldn't experience them or experience them for too long. Fifteen seconds there was too long...[laughter]
Eric: It was too much! Andre: [laughing] Yes, fifteen seconds was too long and too much to feel that emotion. OK. Eric: Good, bad, or otherwise, it's not too late to[1:01:29] . You noticed some things, I pointed out some things in here. You had a reaction. That's where that therapeutic stuff comes in. You're having reactions to things, you've seen the pattern, you're going to [inaudible 1:01:45]. You experience it. You need to talk to [inaudible 1:01: 49] the first time. Because you've seen a physical, drawn-out map...
Now, that's not to say that in five years, six months, [inaudible 1:01:57] . This motivates people. Shifting back to academia, this motivates some people to do something. To go, "Wow," and other people, "Eh, that's the way it is." The more time you go, "Oh well this didn't solve our journey [inaudible 1:02:15].
We could keep going and we'd see more patterns and we'd see more things. [inaudible 1:02:21] That's important to you guys. [inaudible 1:02:24] who you are would have been otherwise.
Andre: How would you even have the facility to go there? It would lead to domestic violence. It would lead to alcoholism... Eric: It could go to a really bad place. Andre: For example, taking racism, how would you...what kinds of questions would start asking to get to how racism impacted all this stuff? Eric: I might ask, what sort of messages have you heard about it? What sort of things have you been told by your parents? What stories did they tell you?My grandfather, for example, who was a predominately white male with some Native American set to the side [inaudible 1:03:13] . They told stories of when they lived in the south, what it was like to be white. So that's part of my racial makeup. The stories that you have heard and the things that you've been taught, "Oh don't say this don't say that." You can draw...you can add notes to the lines if you want who encounter that racial message, and/or what your identity is, and see how you're changing the shape.
I didn't ask, what ethnicity is your wife?
Andre: She's...did you want to know? Eric: Yeah. Andre: She's Native American. Eric: OK! Andre: And she's Irish. Eric: There's another aspect to it. We could assess [inaudible 1:04:00] . Hello? What's her ethnicity? What's Venus'? What's Tracy's? We can keep going down that list and see if we can see any patterns here.Because we tend to sometimes get with people who are very similar to our family. And that's OK, and that happens. Some people notice very stark patterns. Like, here's my mom. Jim respectively. That's OK! But that's why it's so interesting. They're not like "My family's crap," or "My family's the greatest." It's just your opinion. Your view on your opinion.
Andre: The interesting thing is that you have my brothers and my sisters, and they come up with something very similar or that's totally different from their perception of where they are. Eric: What's really funny is if you can get the whole family there, and get them to start talking about Uncle Bill's relationship with Uncle Bob's Sally. Then they start talking about the relationship. Then they start processing the relationship. What happens is they go home and process relationships, because you brought it up.Now it may seem like "Oh, we're just doing a family thing," but really, you've opened up a whole can of worms here. Of relationships and looking at things. I had one particular gentleman that I conduced with. He came back the next session and he said, "Because of that I called my dad and apologized for what a jerk I was to him all those years."
It happens, but it brings it out in such a way. I will invite you, because this is yours and this is the first time you've done this. If you want and I've had other clients do this as well. If you want you can take a cellphone picture of it. It's so wonderful, everyone has cell phones now.
You can take a picture of it if you like and save it. You can add to it if you want. But keep it as a warm echo. Or study it, whatever. Because what's going to happen is I'm going to erase this. Because of confidentiality, I don't want the people in the next room to know who's doing what.
Andre: Because it's so confidential that we have it on... Eric: On videotape. Andre: [laughs] Eric: You sign that piece of paper so I can ask you as many questions as I want. Andre: Right, right. No, we're good. So, we'll definitely do that. Eric: And to kind of wrap it up, the Genrogram as a tool can be very powerful. It brought up something for you that wasn't even on here, which was you don't like wallowing in things. It's "I don't like an emotion. I'm going to fix it." OK. Whereas, I might say "Experience it for a little bit."It's OK. So that brought up other things.
The Genrogram 's not just a family tool. It's so much more than that. And therapists ought to be attuned to that, be attuned to this, ask odd, random questions. Invite them to draw. I've given the marker to lots of people and said, "You know what? You do what I do. I'll just ask questions. You fill in the blanks"
They do, as you saw. You corrected me, and you got invested. "This is my family, therapy can't screw it up!" They do get invested and they form a great tool to do it. And that's why I like doing it. These are fun.
They really did come...
Andre: Eric, what do you think? Eric: Yeah, I do! It was a lot of fun! Yeah, yeah! Thanks for opening up. Andre: Yeah, yeah I just hope none of my family members see this. They don't know exactly what's wrong with me. Eric: Well don't send that picture.[laughter]
Andre: Alright, thanks man. Eric: Yeah, thanks a lot. Andre: We'll have Eric back. We'll do some more trainings. This is the first in a number of series of trainings that we'll be doing. I want to thank you so much for joining us. Until next time, be good to each other. Eric: Thanks a lot. Andre: All right, bye. Eric: Bye.
A Genogram, in effect, is a family tree. Then what we are going to do is we're going to draw some lines and I'll give you an example here in a second of what I mean. We start to develop patterns and start to see some things going on failing that may not be apparent right away with people's lives.
We are going to draw a family tree, draw some lines and make it a little bit interesting and I'll ask you some interesting questions you submit. You be my volunteer for the day.
Andre: Yes, I'll volunteer. Eric: Excellent. I do want to preface it with you and I do have a relationship kind of going in to this. I might be able to ask you some questions that I may not ask the person right off the bat. That's a good thing so we kind of have that relationship built up so that may be helpful when doing the Genogram. Andre: You said, "first off when you first meet someone sometimes you'll use the Genogram", and you were talking about the fact that you and I have a relationship as a practitioner. Does the Genogram shift, whether you had a number of different sessions, or if you are just being introduced to the people that you are working with? Does that play a role in how you [inaudible 02:17] ? Eric: I think it does in a very subtle way. Some practitioners who are less skilled want to jump right in to the Genogram. They want to get that picture going right away. That may not be what the client wants. The client wants a specific thing from you and so they want you to get something. Doing Genogram you might do it in a second, third, fourth session.You might do it if you are lost, for example, I've done it. I've said, "You know, I'm not really sure what's going on in this family so let's do a giant Genogram, one with the family or with the individual because I don't understand what's going on and I need to see what the patterns are here."
They tell you what's going on, but I'm still a bit lost. Jumping right into a Genogram may not be the smartest thing to do based on what the client is asking for. If you have a little bit of a relationship and you can frame the conversation on what we're going to do with the family patterns so to speak, maybe that's what's going on.
Now, I do a Genogram in my head and I'll do one in my intake report [inaudible 03:21] for myself. I'll ask about the players, brothers and sisters, is there anybody else living in the home, stuff like that. Who are the major players? I'll draw a small one on a piece of paper and if it seems like that that's the major issue, then we'll go there.
If it's not a major issue either way maybe we'll go there in the second session. Maybe we'll go there in the third session. It's all about timing and what you think the client is working for.
I draw it on my little piece of paper so I know who the major players are and I draw the lines where I think it's going on. Timing is important in this and also getting to know the clients and what it is they are looking for is the other major [inaudible 04:04] .
When you're going to do a Genogram, the important thing to remember is and since you're the one doing this, you're the player. You're the major player in it. Let's kind of get started here. I only have two colors here.
I usually work with like five or six, bear with me. What we're going to do is start to...I have to explain something. There are specific shapes for a lot of things. I'll start over here. Squares are boys, circles, draw them on.
[laughter]
The nice thing about these is even if you screw up the circle or you screw up the symbol, then they give you the benefit of the doubt as they don't really know that.
[crosstalk]
Eric: Anyway, squares are boys, circles are girls. We'll start real basic. This is you, right here and you are the identified person. We're going to put you [inaudible 05:07] box, big box. Andre, how old are you? Andre: I am 43 years old. Eric: 43. OK.Keep in mind this is your Genogram. This is the way you view your family. Now, if I went and did this with your family it may look different. They may say something different; they may interpret something different so just bear that in mind because it's your personally.
Andre: Actually I'm 44. Eric: 44? OK. [laughs] Andre: [inaudible 05:39] Eric: We are also saying when you do a Genogram, have fun with it because the families will have fun with it too and there is going to be a lot of things, I will point them out as we go along. The family is going to want to have some fun with it.Humor is the grease that really gets the cogs moving in the machine that is there. What we're going to do is we're going to go back. We're going to do three generations. There's you, there's your parents, and then your grandparents. OK.
I'll give you those connecting lines. It's kind of important to try and make as much space as possible, depending on how big your family is. I've seen them about this big, I've seen them that take up the whole whiteboard. Obviously, everybody has two parents. What is your dad's name?
Andre: My dad's name is William Cohen. [inaudible 06:38] . Eric: How old is he? Andre: He is 20 years older than me, so he is 61. He's actually 65. [inaudible 06:47] . Eric: [laughs] Your mom? Andre: Rushelle. R-U-S-H-E-L-L-E. Eric: OK. She is how old? Andre: She is 65 as well. Eric: Are they married to each other? Andre: They're divorced. Eric: They are divorced. OK, so now I'm going to draw some lines here. Andre: All right. Eric: OK. This is the divorce. Now, as we're going through this, we're just going to draw the basic outline of it. Then, we'll start drawing some relational lines that may help you understand, maybe a pattern, maybe something you haven't seen before.If not, that's totally cool, too. I'm going to look at this, I'm going to give you my feedback, and I'm going to ask you some questions. Feel free to jump in with information that I didn't get to. We've got Rushelle, we've got William, they are divorced.
Andre: Yes. Eric: Roughly when did they divorce? Andre: 1987. Eric: OK, so we're going to put a little D, '87, right there. Are they remarried? Andre: My dad has been remarried. It's his third marriage. Eric: OK, so he has one here, with a divorce. Now, he's got another one over here, that's current. Andre: It is current, yes. Eric: OK. We'll get to them in a second. Mom remarried? Andre: My mom did remarry. Eric: OK. One time? Andre: One time. She was divorced to him as well. Eric: OK. She currently single or seeing someone? Andre: I think she's seeing someone. Eric: OK. Single line means they were married, that little slash means they're divorced. This line right here indicates a relationship, but not marriage. Make sense? Andre: Yeah. Eric: OK. Andre: It's about to get deep. Eric: [laughs] We're going to have some fun with this. Do you know her name, the second marriage? Andre: Yes, her name is Venus. Eric: Venus. [inaudible 09:00] [crosstalk] Andre: [inaudible 09:02] . Eric: Did they have any kids together? Andre: No, they did not. Eric: OK. Is she still in the picture at all? Andre: She is not. Eric: OK, so she's kind of off on her own. His current wife? Andre: Della. Eric: Della? D-E-L-L-A? Andre: Yeah. Eric: OK. They live together now. Do they have any kids together? Andre: They do not. Eric: OK. How old is Della? Andre: I'd say she's probably 60, give or take. [inaudible 09:39] . Eric: Oh, of course. Well, rough ages are OK. Mom divorced this gentleman? Andre: Yeah. Eric: His name was? Andre: Tony, and he is deceased. Eric: Sometimes, in the books, what they'll tell you is they draw an X through the person. Andre: That's a little extreme. [laughs] Eric: It is a little extreme for a dead person. Andre: It is. Eric: Instead of drawing a big X through it, I draw a small X, like this, an indication that the person has passed away. Is that the reason they divorced, or is it...? Andre: Yeah. Eric: He died roughly... Andre: Probably about five years ago. [inaudible 10:21] . Eric: We'll just write the year, "2000." She's in a relationship with somebody? Andre: Yeah, I think his name is Jack. I'm not sure. Eric: OK. Any kids from these relationships? Andre: No, no kids. Eric: OK. Once again, just making the framework. Do you have any siblings? Andre: I do. I have two brothers and a sister. Eric: Both from this relationship? Andre: Yep. Eric: OK. So two brothers and a sister. Here's your sister, here's your brother. Here's where things get a little complicated. When you're doing the Genogram, make sure you give yourself plenty of space. It can spread out very quickly. If you need to erase something...you have two brothers. Their names are? Andre: I'm the oldest. My next brother is William. Eric: And to be fair, I did screw this up, because usually you go in chronological order. But, we'll do the best we can. How old is he? Andre: He is two years younger than me. He is 42. Eric: And your other brother? Andre: Damien is six years younger than me. So he is just 38. Eric: And your sister is? Andre: She is 40. [inaudible 11:57] Crystal. C-R-Y... Eric: Basic framework. Any kids on here that I missed? Andre: Nope. Eric: Are you married? Andre: I am. Eric: OK. We're going to try to make some space here. It's going to be a little complicated. And you're married to a female? Andre: Yes, to a female. Patricia.[crosstalk]
Andre: [inaudible 12:27] . Eric: [inaudible 12:29] . Patric...Does she go by any nicknames? Andre: No. It's just Patricia. First name. Eric: How old is Patricia? Andre: Patricia is 30. Eric: You don't look 44, I'll say that. Andre: I appreciate that. [crosstalk] Eric: [inaudible 12:51] . And you two have children? Andre: Yes. We have one female child. Her name is Phoebe, P-H-O-E-B-E. Eric: How old is she? Andre: She is 1 years old. Eric: One! Wow that's funny. [crosstalk] Andre: [inaudible 13:08] . Eric: [inaudible 13:09] . Do either of you have children? Andre: No. Eric: Other children? Andre: No. Eric: First marriage for both of you? Andre: Yes. Eric: Ah! That makes it easy. Once we start moving, things start to get a little complicated. OK. Any of your brothers and sisters married? Andre: Yes they are. Eric: All of them are? Andre: Yes. Eric: OK. Let's do this. We're gonna just move some things around here. All of them are sexual relationships? Andre: Yes. Eric: OK [pause] I had to ask. So this is where it gets a little complicated. Let's start here on William. His wife's name? Andre: Tracey. Eric: Tracey. She is roughly how old? [inaudible 13:59] .[crosstalk]
Andre: [inaudible 14:00] 40. Eric: They have children? Andre: Yes, William III. Eric: Oh that's right. I see that. We'll say Will III. Andre: Mark and Ciara. Eric: They're roughly how old? Andre: Will is 18, Mark is now 21, and Ciara is 14. Eric: OK. Are any of them dating or married? Andre: No. Eric: OK. Damien is married to who? Andre: To Kelly. Eric: How old is Kelly? Andre: Kelly is probably around 38 as well. Eric: They have kids? Andre: They have four kids. Jefarii who we call J. Eric: A boy? Andre: A boy, and he is 14. Conrah, a female... Eric: [inaudible 15:14] for space sake. Andre: [inaudible 15:15] . Then there are two more daughters -- [inaudible 15:18] They are stair steps. The youngest one is two, the other one is four. And Conrah [inaudible 15:43]. Eric: OK. Crystal's husband? Andre: Walter. They have five kids. Eric: Oh, wow. Let's see what we can do about Walt. Let's see if we can fit everybody in. One, two three, four, five. Walter is roughly 40? Andre: He's my age, he's 44. Eric: They have five kids? Andre: Yeah. The oldest daughter is Rocquelle. They have three boys and that's Walter, Winston, Wellington. Eric: Wellington! [laughs] Wow! They've got the W thing going on. Andre: ...and Riley. Eric: Well it's not Wrigley.[crosstalk]
Andre: [inaudible 16:54] . Eric: Well what does Crystal do? Andre: Nothing now I guess! Nothing now. Eric: Nothing they could do there. [inaudible 17:07] . Andre: OK so the ages. Rocquelle is 21. Then, Winston is 16 and Walter is 15. They share the same birthday a year apart. Wellington is 10. His sister is 9. Eric: Quite a few kids on this side. I'm going to erase this...male female circles. Eric: We finally did get that down. Andre: We did. Eric: We finally figured that out. [laughter] Eric: So on your mom's side, her parents are? Andre: Burt Parker, B-U-R-T, and Lucella Lewis. Eric: And are they still with us? Andre: They are not, they've both passed. Eric: What age were they when they passed? Andre: My grandfather was about 45 when he passed. Eric: Fairly young. Again, that's [inaudible 18:30] . Andre: [inaudible 18:31] Yes. Lucella passed this last April. So 2015, so she would have been 91. [inaudible 18:44][crosstalk]
Eric: [inaudible 18:46] They were married? Andre: They were married at one point, and they had a divorce. Eric: OK. Andre: [inaudible 18:56] Eric: I do want to point out that it may sound like I'm asking very simple, rudimentary questions, but it's important because to assume that people were married is an assumption that may not make sense, especially if...I hate to point this out, but I've got divorce, divorce, divorce, divorce. We haven't gotten to this side of the family yet, but I'm starting to notice one thing already. Not that it means anything, but it's interesting.
Andre: Yes. Eric: OK, so they divorced. Did she remarry? Andre: She did remarry. Eric: Did he remarry? Andre: He did not. Eric: OK, so she remarried, once? Andre: Yes. Eric: OK. Again, I'm asking a simple question because in these, the smallest detail can make a big difference. My assumption, and this is where my bias comes from, is that the people of the older generations stuck it out, no matter what. Andre: Yeah. Eric: Most people still got divorced back then, [inaudible 19:57] . OK, so she got remarried to who? Andre: To Charlie [inaudible 20:06] . Eric: OK. He still with her? Andre: He is not, and I would say he passed some time in the '80s. He would have been in his 60s or so. Eric: Rough '80s is OK. Did she have any siblings? Did your mom have any siblings? Andre: Yeah, on this side of the divorce, you can put her two sisters, on this side. Eric: With Burt? Andre: With Burt. Eric: OK, so there's two sisters. Any others? [inaudible 20:38] . Andre: [inaudible 20:39] With Charlie and Lucella, there are eight siblings. Eric: Eight? Andre: Eight. Eric: Wow, OK. One, two, three, four... Andre: Actually, let me back up. There's six. Put another third circle with Bert, another female. [crosstalk] All here, all girls, [inaudible 21:05] . On the other side, there are...my mom has a total of nine brothers and sisters, so there's 10 total of them -- four on this side, so six on the other side. Eric: Now, in situations where there's a number of siblings like that, especially when it's a much further-in generation, I find at least for time's sake, especially because it's several pieces removed. Any of these siblings more important than the others?Now, when I say important, I say for likability's sake, like really going on with this one, and the opposite, which is, they could not stand Bill. Bill got on everybody's nerves. Positive and negative -- big, impractical relationships. Not necessarily positive, it can be negative.
Andre: Yes, I would say that, out of those...We talked about my mother's brothers and sisters. The two that probably stand out more than the others are the oldest daughter, who was my aunt Lorraine. Eric: Lorraine. Andre: Yep, and she just passed. She was 70, roughly around 70. She just passed also in April. My grandmother was living with my aunt Lorraine. Eric: Oh, they were living together. Andre: They were living together. Eric: I'm going to draw a circle around [inaudible 22:40] that you get important information. These two were very close. Andre: Yes. The other side, in terms of looking at the divorces, I would say, [inaudible 22:52] . The individual was [inaudible 22:56], who was the oldest boy out of those [inaudible 23:04]. Eric: Why was he important? Andre: Because he was the oldest boy and one of the first to go off to college after this [inaudible 23:14] . He's somewhat [inaudible 23:18]. Eric: I might get ahead of myself, but would you say he was very influential in your mother's life? Andre: I would say sort of, because she is older than him, so she saw herself as the protector, kind of thing. Whether he saw that from her or not, that's how she saw him. Eric: OK, in a positive way? Andre: In a positive way. Eric: I'm going to draw these lines, and it'll make sense in a second. Let's get the outline over here done, and then we're going to get into the very interesting stuff. Andre: OK. Eric: Didn't miss anybody? Andre: No. Eric: [inaudible 24:02] Andre: My grandfather's name was [inaudible 24:17] , and he passed in the '80s [inaudible 24:30]. My grandmother's name is Willora. Yeah, it's W-I-L-L-O-R-A. Eric: That's kind of what I figured. Andre: Her dad was William, her dad was Lora. Eric: Ah, OK. [laughs] That's a good bit of mystery. Andre: Yeah. Eric: Fair enough. Is she still with us? Andre: No, she passed about four years ago, so she was 89. Eric: You got a couple people who lived -- 89, 91, 70 -- you got a couple folks here. One that left us a little early. Is there a particular reason why? Andre: Health. Eric: Health reasons? Andre: Yeah, diabetes. Eric: Poor maintenance? Andre: Poor maintenance, or even bad luck with health. Eric: I asked that question because when you see somebody passing away at a young age, sometimes that can influence some of the rest of it. Andre: I would say that it did. I assume we'll get to it. Eric: Sure. OK, when we get there, remind me to bring that up. Matter of fact, I'm going to put a little dot as a reminder to myself to ask about that. If it's a car accident or a medical issue, that's really [inaudible 25:59] good word, I guess. OK, let's finish this piece, and we'll get to that. Your father have any siblings? Andre: My father had two siblings. Eric: Let's move this way a little bit. Andre: Yeah. Both male. John II, and Alonzo, who was the oldest. Eric: Alonzo's the oldest, you said? Andre: Yeah, he is the oldest. He's about five years older than my dad, so he's in his 70's, and John died at an early age as well, so he was probably around 35. Eric: Oh. Is that passing important? Andre: I think so. Eric: Was it impactful? Andre: I believe it was impactful in terms of what the family relations are. Eric: Oh? Legend. OK, good. I'm going to put a dot on that one too. That one sounds good. Andre: My grandparents got a divorce. Eric: Oh, thank you for reminding me. One of the nice things is, once you get the ball rolling with this, you did exactly what a lot of families do. You forgot, so-and-so, you got to...the nice thing is, at a certain point, they'll start reminding you of what's going on. Andre: It becomes less of a kind of academic performance, and more... Eric: This is my family. Andre: This is my family. Eric: This is personal. Andre: This is personal. Eric: This is very personal. I'm going to ask you some very personal questions. Here we go. I'm going to ask you some personal questions. Remember, this is your viewpoint of this, OK? There's no judgement here, there's no whatever, and it's just the way things go.Anybody I missed, or sometimes there are peripheral people who are out here, who are...They can be best friends, they can be mistresses, they can be lovers, they can be just really influential people in a family's life, like a reverend, or a pastor, or a clergy member, somebody who's here, not like family, they're not blood-tied, but they're very important. Anybody who might fall into this?
Andre: Yes. There's two people that are important to this whole... Eric: This whole scenario? Andre: The whole scenario. One is Burt Parker's father. His name is Sam Parker, and he's important because he tried to fill the shoes of his son. Eric: Oh, he became the man of this house. Andre: Yes, he made a good attempt to be so, yes. Eric: OK, so we'll draw a dotted line around this as a reminder how this tried to play out. Andre: Yes. On this side, my grandfather John remarried to a woman named Ella. That's important too, [inaudible 29:33] . Eric: Got it. Consolation, that's a good word. Excellent. So far, let's just take stock of how [inaudible 29:48] . What do you think of all this? Have you seen it this way before? Andre: I've thought about it in these kinds of ways, yeah. There's things on here that actually make me nervous because I see recurring themes. Those themes make me a bit nervous about my own... Eric: About this, right here? Andre: Yeah. Eric: Sure, OK. It doesn't make it inevitable. Andre: No. Eric: It's just something to keep in mind. OK, so I like to start in the middle. You can start this any way you want. I tend to start in the middle and branch my way out. There are some lines, and [inaudible 30:31] for the camera, but I'm going to draw some lines just so that they can see it.One line means you like the person, they're OK, but if you were forced to be in a room with them you might [inaudible 30:43] . You like them, but you're not going to go out of your way to see them. You've got two lines, which means you're pretty tight. "I like that person, we get along, things are pretty good. We're good."
Three lines means you are what we call enmeshed with that person, meaning things are a little too close. You've seen these families, sometimes it's mother-daughter, father-son, where it's a little too close, they finish each other's sentences. It's an unhealthy level of connection.
"Oh, so what are you going to do today?" "Well what are they doing? What's Bill doing? I can't do anything without them, I can't think without..." It's unhealthy.
Andre: OK. Almost [inaudible 31:39] kind of way. Eric: Yes, I would go there. The nice thing is you can mix and match all these different lines all you want, to make them make your family or your situation fit. These lines are not set in stone. I'm going to make a jagged line, which means it's an abrasive relationship. You don't really like each other. I'm going to make a wavy line, which is abuse. We can specify what kind of abuse. Andre: Like alcohol, physical... Eric: Yep. That's another good question. Sometimes I'll ask...and you're always going to forget something, so that happens...is anybody in here an addict? You can do an addict tree; I've done that before. With people who have dealt with abusers who are physical abusers, they can trace where that [inaudible 32:36] comes from. Another line, a dotted line. Meaning, this one, you kind of like the person and they're fine. This is, I just...no. There's another one even further than that, like this, which is cut off. Which means, not only no, but hell no. Andre: Yeah. They're like, I don't want them anywhere near me. Eric: Don't call me, don't talk to me, we're done. We can mix and match all of these if we want, and there's a couple more too, but these are complicated ones. Does that make sense? Andre: Yeah. Eric: Sometimes it helps to describe what all these lines are, and if we come to some extra ones, I'll show you what's up. Andre: Again, you can use it as a technique. You can also do these in different colors. Typically, more colors. Eric: Yes. Typically, more colors, so you can see the pattern a little bit easier. Andre: That's OK. Usually, this will work. Eric: I might ask you, "How's your relationship with so-and-so?" and you can tell me one line, two lines, three lines, and [inaudible 33:40] . There are plenty of times where it's like this, which is, we like each other, but man, we butt heads. We're too much alike, for example. There also may be where you said you might have had a fight with someone, so now we don't talk. It's going to look like this, an abrasive relationship with a cut off. Andre: You can combine the types of relationships. These are basically relationship lines that we're going to be adding to. Eric: Hopefully, some patterns will come out, embracing one line I've drawn, draw a dotted line, who lives with whom and whatnot. Let's start pretty simple. You and Patricia. How would you describe that relationship? Andre: I would say that would probably be here, two lines. Eric: Now I have to ask the question, would she describe it the same way? Andre: I think so. Eric: You think so? Andre: Yeah. Eric: OK. I have to ask, because sometimes it's the other way.[crosstalk]
Andre: I can't speak for her. Obviously, this is my perspective. Eric: This is your perspective, yes. On your family. Andre: On my family. Eric: Let's go to the next nearest relationship point, which is your parents. How would you describe your relationship with your mother? Andre: I'd say my relationship with my mother is pretty strong, so two... Eric: Two more lines here? Andre: Two lines, yeah. Eric: How would you describe your relationship with your dad? Andre: I would say my relationship with my dad is probably a combination between a line and a dot. Eric: In my head I kind of had that. I wondered. Andre: Kind of distant, we're kind of related, but we're definitely not a [inaudible 35:38] . Eric: Fair enough. Now to depart for a second. Your brother William, the next one down. How would you describe your relationship with your father? Andre: How would I describe his relationship with our dad? Eric: Mm-hmm. Andre: I would say they're probably...now this is going to sound [inaudible 36:02] too. Probably a double line with a dot. Eric: OK, why do you say that? Andre: Because in our younger years, he would [inaudible 36:18] with my dad, stay with my dad, they obviously had a good relationship between my dad and him. I'm not sure if it's strained now or not, but they certainly had a close relationship. [inaudible 36:31] your brother is your brother [inaudible 36:33] , I would say a strong double line, but their relationship with my father [inaudible 36:38]. Eric: Really. Why would you say that the two oldest boys have a pretty strained relationship with him, but the two younger ones have a pretty good relationship? Andre: I would say that clearly or unclearly... Eric: No, this is your opinion. Andre: ...that I think we had more influence from our mother than the two younger boys did. Eric: OK. When they were divorcing? Andre: Yeah, in the divorcing period. Eric: OK. You would describe the relationship between your mother to William as the same two lines? Andre: Yeah, two lines. Eric: OK. So here's going to be an interesting question; I'm interested to hear this. Since you said that, with your dad, less influence here than your mom, how would you describe their relationship, these two, with your mom? Andre: I would say that my sister's relationship is probably a three-line relationship with my mother. Eric: A little too close? Andre: Sometimes, yeah. Eric: OK. Like [inaudible 37:55] . Andre: Yeah. Talk to each other about everything. [inaudible 38:00] . Eric: Gotcha. OK. Andre: I would say my brother and my mother are probably three lines as well. Eric: OK. How would you now, at this very moment, relationship between your mom and [inaudible 38:21] ? Andre: That would be...I would say a mix of...what does the wavy line mean? Eric: This is abuse. We can specify what kind... Andre: No, no. Eric: This is abrasive. Andre: This is abrasive. I would say just basically broken. Eric: Single line with a cut? Andre: Single line with a cut. They don't really have... Eric: Fair enough. Sometimes this question can get interesting results. What's your mother's relationship to your wife? Andre: I think it's a double line. Eric: OK. You think they get along well? Andre: I think they get along pretty well. Eric: Same with your dad, too? Andre: Yeah. Eric: OK. Because your relationship is, "We're cool, but not sure." But Patricia's is OK? Andre: Yeah. Eric: OK. I will say this. It does get a little messy after a while. But that's OK, because even then, you can still see through it. Little messy. You embrace the mess. Andre: Embrace the mess.[laughter]
Eric: I'm already noticing a small pattern here, which is everybody likes your mom! Andre: Yeah. Eric: She sounds like a cool lady. Andre: Yeah. Eric: So she's a cool lady? Andre: Yeah. Obviously, unless you're married to her.[laughter]
Eric: Summed it right up. Have you met this Jack person? Speaking of which, now that you brought that up. Andre: Yeah, I have. I know Jack. Eric: Yeah? And? Andre: He's a cool guy. Eric: How do they get along? Andre: I guess they get along pretty well. Eric: OK. So two... Andre: Yeah, two lines. Eric: I want to branch out. How do you get along...we can start with your siblings. Between you and William, let's start there. How would you describe that? Andre: I would say, William, Damien, and Crystal, we all have a similar relationship, which is a line and a dot. We get along, but we don't necessarily call each other every day, or even holidays. If something ever happened, we would be there for each other, but we're not...I don't know what they're doing right now. Eric: You would say that between their relationships too? Andre: I would say that, yeah. Eric: Interesting. Let's draw this in here for a quick second. What do you make of this situation, [inaudible 41:24] , empathizing, which is, are they really getting along? People are hit-or-miss with that. People are, down here, this relationship is kind of hit-or-miss as well. What do you make of that? Andre: I'm not sure what to make of it. [inaudible 41:46] . I don't know what you [inaudible 41:53]. Eric: That's OK. Something to think about. You don't have to have every right or wrong answer. It is what it is. We can kind of branch out a little bit. Did you...you probably never knew Burt, I'm guessing. Andre: I have stories of... Eric: Stories. Andre: ...having known him, but I don't think so. Eric: Did you ever meet Sammy? Andre: Yes. Sam lives with us. Eric: He lives with you? Andre: Yes. Eric: How does that work? Andre: Sam, in terms of the Burt Parker, was the obvious patriarch. When Burt died, Sam was always a very big presence, even in Burt's absence. Burt was kind of keeping under his shadow. [inaudible 42:53] kind of person. He had a [inaudible 42:57] family. Eric: You might say that this was a little bit abrasive. Andre: I would say that that might be, yeah, a little bit abrasive. Eric: You think Sam is a pretty large character. Andre: Yeah, he's a pretty large character. In the '80s, Sam is two years older than [inaudible 43:21] generation. About 85, he was 85, soon to be 86. We moved in with him to help him, because he was getting up in age. I was 14 or 15 at the time. He became a grandfather, when in actuality, he's my great-grandfather. Eric: Gotcha. Is he kind of abrasive with a lot of people? Or was it just when he was acting as dad? Andre: I can't answer that. I don't know. Because I only know of him when he was acting as dad. Eric: When he was acting as dad with your mom, how would you describe Sam? Technically, her grandfather. Andre: Yeah. I would say... Eric: Your perception. Andre: Yeah, this is my perception. There was probably a line... Eric: Again, combine any of these lines. Andre: ...and this sounds...maybe even a double line with a [inaudible 44:28] . Eric: Sure. So I might describe these people as loving, but very firm. Andre: Yeah, very firm. Old school, [inaudible 44:43] . Eric: "I do this for your own good." Yeah, that kind of guy. Andre: [inaudible 44:46] Eric: It sounds like Priscilla was around as well. How would you describe your... Andre: My perception of my mother's relationship with her mother? I would say equal, the same double line, with the same kind of conflict in it. My grandmother was a very hard woman until she got old, and then she became very soft. Eric: Some people graduate out of the firmness. Andre: Yeah. She was a no-nonsense kind of lady, my way highway, [inaudible 45:24] . Eric: It sounds like Rochelle and Lorraine were almost a three. Andre: Yes, they were a three. Eric: They lived together. Andre: My aunt Lorraine was a three with my mother, and my aunt Lorraine was a three with my grandmother. Eric: With her? Andre: Yes. Eric: Really? Andre: Yeah. Eric: Was Lorraine just that way with everybody, or she was the watchdog? Andre: Yes and no. I think for Lorraine, it was important for her to be in control. She could... Eric: Really. So when Burt died, did she see the void and try and take care of everybody? Andre: I'm not sure. [inaudible 46:08] . Eric: It's a question. Andre: But I do know that Lorraine was a serious matriarch. Eric: OK. Very motherly? Andre: Very motherly. Eric: Was she this way to the other kids too? Andre: She was this way to all of the kids. Eric: Very...you described it as controlling. Andre: I did describe it as controlling. Eric: Again, perception. She is setting herself up, I guess, to be the person. Andre: Yes. She was the person. Eric: Interesting. Again, something to think about. You've got three lines, and then this one, with Crystal, here. You've got three brothers and one girl. She's enmeshed with [inaudible 47:04] . What do you think? Andre: That my mother's setting this up to be the new matriarch. Eric: Maybe rightfully so. Andre: Maybe rightfully so. Eric: Have you noticed this before? Andre: I have certainly noticed it, and... Eric: OK. Does it cause conflict at all? Andre: No, it doesn't. However, sometimes I feel for my sister because she in some ways feels, in my opinion, she may feel trapped. Stuck in Ohio, where the rest of us have all left. None of the boys there. Eric: It's an interesting question. Andre: Yep. It often comes up. Eric: Were Cheryl, Jack, and this part of the family in Ohio? Andre: Yep. Eric: Anybody else in Ohio? Andre: Nope. Eric: Just these people. Andre: Well, this whole side of the family, for the most part, is in Ohio. Eric: OK. Let's [inaudible 48:05] . We're going to draw a circle around the whole bit to say "Ohio." Now something makes a little bit of sense, why there's a little bit of a dotted line for Crystal, because she's out of the state Andre: We're all out of the state from each other. That's where that dotted line kind of becomes a dotted line. Eric: Everybody else is in Minnesota? Andre: Nope. My dad is in Tennessee, my brothers are in Atlanta, [inaudible 48:46] in Minnesota. Eric: I'll draw a line around you three. You've got some distance between all of you. [inaudible 49:00] . You're all scattered. Andre: It's kind of obvious when you look at the line, and the dotted line. Eric: You say obvious, what do you mean? Andre: Well... Eric: It's not obvious to me. Andre: The geography of where we are has a lot to do with the relationships that we have, according to my perception of where we are. The dotted line for my father, the dotted line for my brothers, I think also is related to that distance. Eric: I just thought of something. What's William's relationship with Sam? Because I started putting two and two together, and it sounds like Sam and you moved in while they were still together. Is that true? Andre: Yes, that is true. Eric: OK. So what's their relationship like? Especially, he's a larger-than-life character. Andre: Yeah. I would say probably pretty strained. So maybe... Eric: Dot, maybe with a squiggly thing? Andre: Yeah, dot with a squiggly. Eric: I can imagine the squiggly bit, because if you've got somebody here who's, "I'm Dad" and somebody else who's coming in like, "No, no, no, I'm Dad," I could see some conflict arising there. That makes sense, to me anyway. Andre: Yep. Eric: We'll put a jagged line and a squiggly line. OK. It kind of makes me wonder. Does that situation precipitate when [inaudible 50:31] . Andre: I would imagine that some of it was a factor. I would say it was a factor. Eric: A factor. Not the factor. Andre: No, I don't think it was the factor, but it was a factor. Eric: Branching out just a little bit, I'm trying to get a big picture, just making sure we've gotten some time here. This can go based on stories you've heard, you don't have to have personal experience, but what do you think the relationship was with your dad's parents with your dad? Andre: What is my dad's relationship with... Eric: His parents. Andre: His parents. I think with my grandmother it was probably three lines. Eric: OK. Really? Andre: Yeah. Eric: Excuse the phrase -- a mama's boy? Andre: Yeah, a little bit. Eric: OK. And with his dad? Andre: It was probably a line with a dot. Eric: OK. A little distant, he's there, but mentally kind of just checked out maybe. Andre: [inaudible 51:37] Eric: OK. [inaudible 51:39] Andre: [inaudible 51:40] Eric: OK. Based on the stories you heard. To ask another question, we've got a grandma here who's very enmeshed with her little boy, who then raised a woman sort of enmeshed here. Then we've got a dad who's distant, and kind of having some distant relationships again. What do you think? Andre: I think you replicate your [inaudible 52:17] . Eric: [laughs] That's a very intellectual answer, Andre. Andre: [laughs] I think we replicate what we know. Eric: Is this some of this nervousness coming in? Andre: It is, in fact. Because looking at my mother's side, and then you see my father's side, it becomes very obvious that people have started to replicate relationships that they had been a part of. [inaudible 52:44] goes back to the individual, being me, that these are not patterns that I necessarily want to replicate, because I can go back and see what the results are. Eric: Now, we could, in theory, do this on a big spreadsheet and double sessions. I've done more than two sessions with this client because it does get so big and so long.I have to ask a couple questions, and then for time's sake. If you were in a bind, and you had only one phone call, doesn't matter, day or night. You were in a massive bind, could only talk to one person, who'd you call?
Andre: My mom. Eric: Your mom? OK.[laughter]
Eric: She seems like a happening lady. Seems like the one everybody goes to. OK. It makes me wonder if she set it up that way, whether it's possible or not. Andre: When you're just looking at the diagram, one could certainly suggest that she did set it up that way. [inaudible 54:08] . Eric: Is there anybody in here where people are just like, "No, hell no. Screw that person. They were mean, they were a jerk," nobody likes that person? Andre: I don't think so. I don't think there's any one person. I think there are attributes of people, but I don't think there's any one person that people don't like. Eric: OK. I have to ask if there is any abuse in your family that I should be aware of. Andre: I think there's a lot of alcohol abuse and physical abuse [inaudible 54:43] , particularly on the right side of the family. Eric: Mom's side? Andre: Mom's side of the family. Eric: I'm going to take a stab in the dark that it starts with someone. Am I wrong? Andre: I would say that it would start with Sam, but I would say that culturally, there's some cultural things around physical abuse that people do. It's considered natural. Eric: Did he ever aim it at anybody in particular? Andre: I don't think so. Eric: OK, because sometimes they'll pick one or two [inaudible 55:16] . Andre: Yeah, Dad hits me, too, today, a lot, but I do know that physical abuse, and there's lots of alcoholism on that side of the family. Eric: Who would we mark as having problems with alcohol? Andre: I would say [inaudible 55:38] and then... Eric: Yeah, I know it's hard. I put a page that's kind of blank in there. Did that trickle down to your mom, too? Did she have an issue? Andre: Not necessarily an issue but being in an environment where alcohol was abusive, and became a secondary response of protecting her students, always being associated with protecting her students. Eric: Do you think that's why Lorraine is the way she is? Andre: Yes. That's exactly why she is the way she is. Eric: OK! Andre: Yes, for a number of reasons. Eric: Light bulb! OK! She's protecting...[crosstalk]
Andre: She was protective and she was all of those things Eric: So this lady right here... Andre: Yeah Eric: ...is kind of your mom, right? Andre: Yeah. Eric: It's actually her. She's the one and we're not blaming her. Andre: No. Eric: No responsibility. It just is. It's an interesting fact that she would take this protective motherly feline, motherly [inaudible 56:51] , "Come to me. Come, I will protect you from all of this." Andre: "From all the world." Yep. Eric: Right? And the world, and the alcoholism, and all that good jazz. She would be the overbearing one. And then your mom would be the nice one. Isn't that weird? Andre: That is kind of weird. Eric: That your mom, she's protective when you're together, and over here we've got the...she's just nice. She filled that nice void. Andre: We've got to protect that. Eric: Again, this is perception, and this is the way we look at it, So, I'm going to invite you to take a step back over here for a second Andre: To walk up here. Eric: Yes, physically walk up here. I'm going move over here and I'm going to ask you to take a a step. No, take a step and kind of look at it and give me your impression. Good, bad, otherwise, it doesn't matter. Give me your impression. Andre: It looks like my grandfather and my dad's relationship with his son is the same as my relationship with my dad. It also looks like my relationship with my mother is very similar to the relationship I have with my wife. Eric: You're getting a little emotional. Andre: Yeah. Eric: That's OK. That's OK, what's going on? What's going on? Andre: Yeah. So, it's interesting to see all of that going on, because I have choices. Eric: Focus-based. That's your [inaudible 58:49] . Andre: Like all of us, I have choices, and I can continue a number of these patterns or I can start changing them. I know, from seeing a number of these individuals personally, that trauma and stress and racism... Eric: Whit, we didn't even go there. Andre: Yeah, we did not go there. They've been a huge part of why people died young, why folks are protective of other people, and tried to build relationships. Because my mother's relationship with us with the double lines is the same as she tried to have with her youngest older brother, so that makes sense.I think her relationship with Jack is a very important one. I don't even know how intimate that relationship is, but it's certainly was very similar relationship to what she had with her friends.
Eric: I noticed that you started to get a little emotional but you pulled back. Why did you pull back? Andre: Because I... Eric: Is it easier academically? Andre: Yes, it's easier to hear it academically. But the other thing that I realized was that, for the emotions that I was feeling, there is response that I can use my emotions to actually move forward. Just thinking about these relationships that I want to continue, or how I want it to be different, losing my control, and I don't have to. I can use my emotions to change how those things are, as opposed to just wallowing in those emotions. Eric: And to you, it's wallowing, right? My response to you might be you call it wallowing, I call it [inaudible 1:01:02] . And so the experiences that you feel are wallowing, like it's a bad thing, you shouldn't experience them or experience them for too long. Fifteen seconds there was too long...[laughter]
Eric: It was too much! Andre: [laughing] Yes, fifteen seconds was too long and too much to feel that emotion. OK. Eric: Good, bad, or otherwise, it's not too late to[1:01:29] . You noticed some things, I pointed out some things in here. You had a reaction. That's where that therapeutic stuff comes in. You're having reactions to things, you've seen the pattern, you're going to [inaudible 1:01:45]. You experience it. You need to talk to [inaudible 1:01: 49] the first time. Because you've seen a physical, drawn-out map...
Now, that's not to say that in five years, six months, [inaudible 1:01:57] . This motivates people. Shifting back to academia, this motivates some people to do something. To go, "Wow," and other people, "Eh, that's the way it is." The more time you go, "Oh well this didn't solve our journey [inaudible 1:02:15].
We could keep going and we'd see more patterns and we'd see more things. [inaudible 1:02:21] That's important to you guys. [inaudible 1:02:24] who you are would have been otherwise.
Andre: How would you even have the facility to go there? It would lead to domestic violence. It would lead to alcoholism... Eric: It could go to a really bad place. Andre: For example, taking racism, how would you...what kinds of questions would start asking to get to how racism impacted all this stuff? Eric: I might ask, what sort of messages have you heard about it? What sort of things have you been told by your parents? What stories did they tell you?My grandfather, for example, who was a predominately white male with some Native American set to the side [inaudible 1:03:13] . They told stories of when they lived in the south, what it was like to be white. So that's part of my racial makeup. The stories that you have heard and the things that you've been taught, "Oh don't say this don't say that." You can draw...you can add notes to the lines if you want who encounter that racial message, and/or what your identity is, and see how you're changing the shape.
I didn't ask, what ethnicity is your wife?
Andre: She's...did you want to know? Eric: Yeah. Andre: She's Native American. Eric: OK! Andre: And she's Irish. Eric: There's another aspect to it. We could assess [inaudible 1:04:00] . Hello? What's her ethnicity? What's Venus'? What's Tracy's? We can keep going down that list and see if we can see any patterns here.Because we tend to sometimes get with people who are very similar to our family. And that's OK, and that happens. Some people notice very stark patterns. Like, here's my mom. Jim respectively. That's OK! But that's why it's so interesting. They're not like "My family's crap," or "My family's the greatest." It's just your opinion. Your view on your opinion.
Andre: The interesting thing is that you have my brothers and my sisters, and they come up with something very similar or that's totally different from their perception of where they are. Eric: What's really funny is if you can get the whole family there, and get them to start talking about Uncle Bill's relationship with Uncle Bob's Sally. Then they start talking about the relationship. Then they start processing the relationship. What happens is they go home and process relationships, because you brought it up.Now it may seem like "Oh, we're just doing a family thing," but really, you've opened up a whole can of worms here. Of relationships and looking at things. I had one particular gentleman that I conduced with. He came back the next session and he said, "Because of that I called my dad and apologized for what a jerk I was to him all those years."
It happens, but it brings it out in such a way. I will invite you, because this is yours and this is the first time you've done this. If you want and I've had other clients do this as well. If you want you can take a cellphone picture of it. It's so wonderful, everyone has cell phones now.
You can take a picture of it if you like and save it. You can add to it if you want. But keep it as a warm echo. Or study it, whatever. Because what's going to happen is I'm going to erase this. Because of confidentiality, I don't want the people in the next room to know who's doing what.
Andre: Because it's so confidential that we have it on... Eric: On videotape. Andre: [laughs] Eric: You sign that piece of paper so I can ask you as many questions as I want. Andre: Right, right. No, we're good. So, we'll definitely do that. Eric: And to kind of wrap it up, the Genrogram as a tool can be very powerful. It brought up something for you that wasn't even on here, which was you don't like wallowing in things. It's "I don't like an emotion. I'm going to fix it." OK. Whereas, I might say "Experience it for a little bit."It's OK. So that brought up other things.
The Genrogram 's not just a family tool. It's so much more than that. And therapists ought to be attuned to that, be attuned to this, ask odd, random questions. Invite them to draw. I've given the marker to lots of people and said, "You know what? You do what I do. I'll just ask questions. You fill in the blanks"
They do, as you saw. You corrected me, and you got invested. "This is my family, therapy can't screw it up!" They do get invested and they form a great tool to do it. And that's why I like doing it. These are fun.
They really did come...
Andre: Eric, what do you think? Eric: Yeah, I do! It was a lot of fun! Yeah, yeah! Thanks for opening up. Andre: Yeah, yeah I just hope none of my family members see this. They don't know exactly what's wrong with me. Eric: Well don't send that picture.[laughter]
Andre: Alright, thanks man. Eric: Yeah, thanks a lot. Andre: We'll have Eric back. We'll do some more trainings. This is the first in a number of series of trainings that we'll be doing. I want to thank you so much for joining us. Until next time, be good to each other. Eric: Thanks a lot. Andre: All right, bye. Eric: Bye.